Ugly Nationalistic Chinese Demonstration in Auckland
Sunday afternoon saw
So what exactly happened here?
You know that ‘Sacred Flame’ that’s been tying up the world’s police resources for the last several weeks? What say we bring it to
I first heard about this event on Thursday evening. I had been reading about how the Australian leg of the Olympic torch relay had seen pro-Chinese demonstrators rampage through
“Encouraged by organisers to wear red -
I was stunned. Given the trouble associated with the Olympic torch elsewhere in the world (see here, here and especially here), why would the local Chinese community choose this moment to organize a nationalistic flag waving rally centered around a ‘mock Olympic torch’? The event was not even organized by radical students. It was organized by numerous Chinese community groups, and following consultation with the Chinese consulate.
I have nothing against Chinese community events to promote the Olympics.
Chinese Rally to “Celebrate the Olympics”
Sunday arrived and I headed to
Many people carried banners. The banner messages were mixed. There were many pure Olympic slogans. There were also many nationalistic and chauvinistic slogans that alienated certain groups and made them feel unwelcome at this “Olympic Celebration”. Some slogans were alienating even to other ethnic Chinese. “One World, One Dream, One China” is a strange and contradictory slogan that links the Olympics to militarism. Until
I snapped a couple of pictures of
‘Tibetan Splittists’ threaten the fun! Vigilant patriots save the day!
Taking the scene in, I saw somebody was addressing the crowd from the
I went to investigate the Town Hall area before venturing across to the
I still had many questions though. The focus of this drama was a raised stone platform suitable for addressing a crowd, displaying flags, and so on. Why were the Chinese all crowded around this platform when the speaker and main stage were on the opposite side of the square? Had the organizers arranged things so that the rally had two separate focal points? Were different Chinese groups simultaneously organizing different activities in competition with one another? Maybe the ‘Olympic flame’ was about to be carried from this point to the main stage? Why had the Tibetan protesters climbed onto the platform that was the focus of the Chinese rally? Couldn’t they have politely protested somewhere around the edge of the crowd instead of rudely pushing their way right to the middle of it? I wanted to ask the Tibetan protesters what was going on but there was no way to get close. I also wanted to ask a Chinese demonstrator how the Tibetans had got there, but it seemed imprudent to try questioning the hostile and excited individuals around me. I assumed there would be an opportunity to ask later.
Things got more intense as I watched. The Tibetan flags disappeared completely. The crowd cheered. People shouted things like “Drive them away! Beat them up! We don’t want them!” I saw a Tibetan protester for the first time. He was a shaved headed westerner, squatted on the ground, either with his fingers in his ears or using his hands to protect his head. The crowd surged around him and he disappeared. In the brief second he was visible I did not see him get hit. He did not seem to be crouched down in pain, just in reaction to a hazardous situation. I saw no more Tibetans and things up on the platform calmed down slightly. I assumed that the Tibetans had somehow left the platform (driven away, leaving themselves, or rescued by police). I was concerned for their safety, but since the dynamic of the crowd on the platform became less violent after the Tibetans vanished (changing from struggling to flag waving) I assumed they had escaped and were not somewhere in the middle of the crowd getting bashed.
Getting assaulted “Olympic Celebration” style
At that moment I spotted a Tibetan flag on the ground a few meters from me. Presumably it had just been stolen from the Tibetan protesters. People were pushing forward to trample on it. I followed the press, holding back somewhat, and pulled my camera out to snap this image, an obvious focus for anyone holding a camera. As I tried to take my photo somebody kicked me from behind. I also felt I was punched. Somebody seemed to be trying to snatch my camera. Events were confused, with various people grabbing and shoving me. A Chinese marshal of some sort intervened and started to pull me out of the demonstration. I am confused about exactly what happened, but the marshal’s intervention in itself confirmed that I was a focus of hostility and at physical risk.
As the marshal pulled me out I became surrounded by people screaming “Fuck off!”, “Fuck you!”, “Fuck your Mother!” etc. The abuse was in non-native English and Chinese. The abusers must have been relatively recent arrivals from
Media stardom and meeting my fans
The attack was partly caught on film by a cameraman from SODE Productions (a local Chinese media company). The cameraman then continued filming me after I was driven out of the crowd. He filmed me answering questions from a couple of concerned passers by, then phoning police to report the assault. Although the assault was minor in the sense that I was not hurt, it was significant in that it indicated an aggressive and out-of-control crowd. Therefore I wanted to report it officially. No police were available at the time though. The cameraman turned out to be quite amiable, and we chatted while I decided whether to continue waiting for the police or just give up and leave. The footage he took may appear in a documentary about the event.
After maybe ten minutes the cameraman suggested going back to the crowd to attempt a ‘reconciliation’. I had mixed feelings about this. There was a safety issue, an issue of disobeying the marshal, and questions about the real purpose of it all. In the end I decided there was no harm in going along with his proposal. I doubted we would achieve much, but assuming I didn’t get assaulted again it seemed as good a way as any to spend my time. Many attendees had previously been passionately ‘communicating’ with me. Perhaps I should give them the opportunity to express themselves more calmly.
The ‘reconciliation’ never quite got into gear.
To get things rolling, I had to demonstrate that I was not a “Tibetan splittist” by letting everyone see that the T-shirt beneath my leather jacket was not the dreaded Snow Lion Flag. Making things interesting, my T-shirt turned out to carry the equally alarming Republic of China (i.e. ‘Taiwanese’) flag [NOTE: In response to some comments made below I should emphasize that this t-shirt was never visible prior to my unbuttoning my jacket and showing it to the cameraman. There was therefore no connection between this t-shirt and my being assaulted. I was not “asking for trouble” as some have suggested. I had in fact done the opposite and covered up a potentially sensitive article of clothing.]. Adding to the confusion, the T-shirt itself was purchased at the
Unfortunately, those who had earlier been most eager to communicate with me (i.e. those who had abused me the loudest), were uninterested in civilized communication. I only remember one of them, a middle aged man, asking me a question. His question was “Have you ever even been to
I have probably missed some things that were said, but the reconciliation attempt did not achieve much beyond letting them see I was not hiding a Tibetan flag under my jacket. Of course, so what if I had been? Anyway, it was good to have at least tried to talk. Personally I could have tried harder, but given the hostility I had just experienced I was not feeling particularly sociable. I more or less just put myself in front of them, put the ball in their court, and let them do what they wanted. They offered nothing much in the way of an apology, interest in me quickly died, and after a couple of minutes I left. The group I spoke with was not identical to the group that attacked me, though it included at least three individuals from the earlier attack.
The Aftermath
Saying goodbye to the cameraman I walked away via the back of the Town Hall and towards
I headed home. Unfortunately I did not get a chance to hear the speakers or see the “Olympic torch”. I guess I was in the square for less than ten minutes before getting attacked. Walking home I avoided eye contact with Chinese people, not wanting to get involved in further trouble.
After I reached home a friend of mine called, wanting to meet up and get something to eat. I took the car out and drove along
Violence
Based on news reports, posts on Sky Kiwi, and my own experiences, the day was marred by multiple instances of violence. The following is a quick summary:
- Violence against the small group of four Tibetan protesters. There was clearly a lot of shoving and physical intimidation. One Network News showed a Chinese protester swinging punches at a Tibetan protester. However, no Tibetan protesters were reported to have required medical treatment. Overall it seems Chinese marshals prevented the violent crowd from causing serious harm. There were no arrests.
- Unprovoked violence against myself as detailed above. There were no arrests.
- An incident reported by and involving a non-Chinese builder. Details are not clear but it seems the builder intervened to stop protesters attacking a car (they were rocking the car and pushing flag poles through the windows). The builder and his car then became victims of an attack. There were apparently no arrests.
- An attack by a Chinese female on a taxi. This seems to be a separate incident to the above. In this incident a taxi driver shouted comments in support of
- An assault on a non-protesting Tibetan sympathizer. A man called into a radio station and described being shoved around and struck in the face with flag poles when he attempted dialog with Chinese protesters. There were no arrests.
- An incident outside McDonalds on
- There seems to have been a third arrest, involving a non-Chinese person, for disorderly behavior. I can find no details on the incident involved. It may or may not have been connected to one of the above incidents.
- There were probably other incidents in addition to the above. It would be unlikely for me to have found information on every single incident of violence.
Policing
So where were the police? The real Olympic flame has created mountains of policing work around the world, yet when the Chinese community decides to import this style of fun to New Zealand by organizing a nationalist rally with accompanying ‘Olympic flame’ there is not a policeman in sight. The lack of a police presence made an odd contrast to the recent protests against the Electoral Financing Act, which saw a huge police presence line
The timing of the rally could hardly have been more sensitive. The event was being held months before the Olympics (making it hard for many to appreciate the Olympic connection), weeks after the signing of the controversial Free Trade Agreement with China (opposed by many New Zealanders), and just days after the Canberra torch relay (which saw numerous assaults by aggressive Chinese students). There was clearly huge potential for trouble.
A private company called The Edge, which manages the
The Edge may have failed to arrange police assistance, but the police themselves were also at fault. On the Friday before the protest the police were quoted as saying that they were aware of the protest and had “contingencies in place should there be any trouble”. The police knew the event was happening and knew what had just occurred in Canberra. The police know the Auckland CBD has a huge population of Chinese students. The police have personnel monitoring websites like Sky Kiwi and presumably sensing the anger and extremism of Chinese students in New Zealand. There was plenty of trouble and the police were absent. The police and the mayor of
The only security personnel that I saw were Chinese marshals, though personnel from The Edge were apparently also present. The marshals did a good job in terms of protecting targets of violence, but of course had no power to arrest perpetrators. Their actions prevented things from escalating further and nobody suffered serious harm. However, the message seemed to be that pro-China thuggery was acceptable within certain limits.
Criticisms of the Event
Overall, I think the event was an embarrassment to citizens of the People’s Republic of
Some people will be reading this and thinking I have been biased by my own negative experience. Of course that experience has influenced my thinking. However, I am not too concerned about what happened to me; it involved only a small segment of the crowd and would not have been noticed by most attendees. I am more concerned with how the crowd behaved towards the Tibetan protesters.
Admittedly, I do not really know what happened here. However, looking back, I doubt the raised platform on which the Tibetans were standing was being used in the formal proceedings of the Chinese event. My guess is that Chinese attendees crowded towards that area in response to the Tibetan presence. I may be wrong, but my reading is that hundreds of Chinese ignored invited speakers at their own event in favor of taunting and assaulting four Tibetan protesters. The official speakers were made inaudible by the people screaming at the Tibetans. I do not understand this behavior. The protesters were positioned such that anyone focused on the stage would have had their backs to them – they were at the ‘back of the hall’ so to speak. Why were hundreds of attendees incapable of just ignoring them?
The organizers should be embarrassed at the conduct of this very large group. Why bother with speeches if nobody wants to listen? Why not just bill the event as “Smash up the
Discussion of the event on Chinese websites
Much of the online discussion of the event on Sky Kiwi (
Alongside the calls for more violence, there has been some “anti-violence” rhetoric. For example, users have been asked not to post photos of scuffles and assaults. The purpose of the request is unclear though. Is it to hide previous violence (and perhaps protect the perpetrators) or discourage future violence? An acquaintance of mine went on to Sky Kiwi to question the violent nature of the rally (I am banned from the site ever since I questioned an earlier demonstration, as you can read about here and here). Initially most respondents either told him there had been no violence, or that the violence was ‘Chinese expressing themselves’ and locals should shut up and accept it. Slowly, he started to attract some supportive or at least sympathetic responses.
Scofflaws have celebrated their actions online and received unanimous praise. For example, the female who attacked a taxi and apparently damaged its door is being treated as a hero. She has attracted dozens of messages praising her patriotism and holding her up as a role model. Not a single person has suggested she overreacted and broke the law. However, one or two people have hinted at tracking down the taxi driver and taking further action against him.
Hopefully an opinion shift is occurring towards less violent attitudes. You seriously have to wonder if
Positive Comments about the Event
A few comments on a more positive note:
- Apparently attendees were very efficient in cleaning rubbish up.
- Everybody seemed to know the words to the Chinese national anthem, yet even the All Blacks mumble their way through the
- Despite all the trouble large numbers of people managed to ignore the Tibetan demonstrators.
Suggestions for Future Olympic Events
Before making any suggestions I should first note that I am not very interested in the Olympics. My lack of creativity below can be attributed partly to this. For what it is worth though, here are a few ideas:
- Far fewer
- Far more non-Chinese attendees: Achieving this might be very difficult. How many locals would want to be part of an event like that on Sunday? Were they even invited? Would they have been welcome? I have no concrete suggestions on how to achieve larger numbers of non-Chinese attendees. Obviously the key is a more welcoming attitude and less alienating behavior. If more non-Chinese attendees could be attracted it would create a better impression and help keep the focus on the Olympics rather than politics. Also, if politics really must be involved in an Olympic event, surely the clever way of winning support from the wider community would be to attract non-Chinese to the event and then gently try to influence their opinions (e.g. distribute leaflets, through speeches, etc.).
- Creative choice of ‘Chinese’ flags: Huge numbers of People’s Republic of
- Get rid of the 中國加油！(Go China!) slogan. In the absence of any obvious focus (what exactly is
- Don’t overdo the national anthem. Given that the PRC anthem is essentially a call to war, full of references to advancing on the enemy and so on, a little sensitivity is appropriate. There is also a difference between singing the anthem to mark the start of an event, and singing it to celebrate a crowd of four thousand successfully assaulting four lonely protesters.
Concluding Thoughts
I have written quite a lot. Hopefully, most people reading will find something of value. I doubt I will attend future Olympics related events in
UPDATE (16/06/2008): Nearly two months have now passed since the incident. At the time the cameraman who filmed me getting assaulted offered to put his footage online (and perhaps gather other footage) in order to help identify the people who assaulted me. I took his offer at face value, considering it a kind and genuine gesture. Unfortunately, despite me gently following the matter up he has never followed through on his promise. There was always a possibility that the company he worked for would not release the footage. However, according to the cameraman himself the company agreed to allow the footage to be used but he decided himself against helping me. His rationale is that the Sichuan Earthquake made it inappropriate. I don’t quite get the reasoning behind this, though it appears to be another variation on the ‘china as victim’ world view. An earthquake in Sichuan makes it OK for Chinese (many of them visitors to New Zealand) to assault non-Chinese New Zealanders. Or if the behavior isn’t quite acceptable it still isn’t appropriate to question it. He suggested that I attend a Sichuan Earthquake benefit event and ask the organizers there to help me. Umm. . . I don’t think so. We either go with the original agreement or you go fuck yourself. All of my friends told me not to believe this guy. I guess I should have listened to them not him.
* The Snow Lion Flag is an ancient Tibetan symbol but variations were used even under Qing Imperial rule. While the present version of the Snow Lion Flag dates from the period of Tibetan de facto independence following the Qing, there is no real reason that appropriate use of a Snow Lion Flag should be inconsistent with being a loyal citizen of the PRC. The flag is illegal in
** Turning down gifts is rude. However, I felt it would be inappropriate to accept the flag. First, I was at the event to observe only. Given the political nature of the event I was not interested in becoming a participant. Second, there was no need for another person carrying a Chinese flag at that moment – Chinese flags were everywhere! I have nothing against Chinese flags, and in the right circumstances I might carry one (e.g. at a football match where I was supporting the Chinese team). I make an exception to the above for really cool Chinese flags – e.g. Qing battle standards or the flag of the 1911 Republic.
May 1st, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Why don’t you simply call it a Nazi rally? simply liken it as a parade of goons and thugs who were heading to an overseas invasion like what happened in 19th century?
May 1st, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Hi Bunny Hugs,
Thanks for the great article. In the paragraph under the headline “Chinese Rally to â��Celebrate the Olympicsâ��” you said they are waving “Republic of China” flags. That’s not right. The Republic of China is the official name of Taiwan, which very few countries recognize as a country these days. The official name of Red China is the PEOPLE’s Republic of China.
Cheers
ACR
May 1st, 2008 at 8:17 pm
“One World, One Dream, One China”
Goes nicely with “Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein China.”
LOL
May 1st, 2008 at 8:49 pm
Another Casual Reader, thanks for pointing out that I missed out a “People’s”. The mistake has been corrected.
May 1st, 2008 at 8:59 pm
i was reading your comments and it reminded me of events in my home country of Estonia last spring. You say: Why not just bill the event as “Smash up the LV store to celebrate the Olympics”? In Estonia it could have been called “Smash up a Hugo Boss store to celebrate WWII victory”. (we just don’t have LV
)
In such events people often loose their focus (herding behavior) and forget what they are actually fighting for. e.g. middle-aged woman starts shouting rude impolite comments. I think this is sad.
Good report … put me to think …
thanx
May 2nd, 2008 at 7:35 am
Bunnyhugs, this was linked in from ESWN.
Thanks for the post and lengthy description. Despite being attacked, in my view you do a fair job of giving a balanced description of the events you observed and experienced first hand.
What is most shocking about all this is how out-of-character this demonstration seems for overseas Chinese and Chinese foreign students.
By and large, in my experience, political demonstrations for overseas Chinese have been pretty far down the priority scale, and most Chinese foreign students I’ve known are mainly focused on graduating and getting a job.
I’m hardpressed to recall any large scale demonstration by overseas Chinese or Chinese foreign students in any developed country in the last 20 years, since Tiananmen Square in ‘89.
Your mentioning of the “middle aged” people at the demonstration reminded me of a comment made at Richard Spencer’s blog at the Telegraph.com.
Spencer wrote a piece on how the Tibet independence protests (particularly against the disabled athlete holding the torch in Paris) have backfired because of their unintended effect of setting Chinese guy-on-the-street opinion against the Tibetans. A commenter wrote:
“How could it have not backfired? My wife, who had not been paying attention to anything other than the good work she is doing here in the Silicon Valley - slaving for the gigantic global communications systems, just confessed to me that on Friday night the reason she was late to bed was that she was reading about the one-legged heart-throb being attacked. She hid in the washroom and was crying.”
“This is a very apolitical forty-something lady and more so than I am. How can this have not backfired given that the protesters most critical constituency is now against them.”
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/foreign/richardspencer/april08/tibetbackfire.htm
Violence begets violence.
“He who cast the first stone probably didn’t” captures the psychological reasons why violence escalates. Tit for tat. Each side claims to be justified when making a reasonable retaliation for hurt inflicted by the other side.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/24/opinion/24gilbert.html
Chinese around the world have felt hurt in a big way by all the negativity in the media towards the Olympics, and this hurt becomes a need to vent, and some of that has gone too far and turned ugly.
For this reason I think some people reading your post may feel upset that you don’t articulate the frustration felt by Chinese and why these Chinese groups were out there in such numbers and with such passion. They may feel you don’t give the backstory, and this makes Chinese look bad to the uninformed.
They would be correct, to a point. But then again, it’s not your job to present the backstory.
And your observations on how to do better demonstrations I’m sure will be appreciated by future event organizers.
Certainly the police needed to do better crowd control.
Perhaps this essay by HuangFu Ping (translated at ESWN) will help everyone develop a more informed and rational perspective.
http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20080501_1.htm
May 2nd, 2008 at 8:41 am
Feel really angry about what happened to you, but as some of the comments are saying, this isn’t just about China, it can happen anywhere. However, I was present at some other rallies in London, and it is the same situation, where if you don’t have the same point of view as everybody else, you will get picked on.
I was also asked “what do you think about Tibet” and then when I tried to explain my view, that I thought that Tibet was lost to China, because they didn’t defend it, and that in my view since they lost it and have been unable to claim it back they lose the right to have it, etc etc etc… suddenly she was screaming at me, “the fact you are calling it Tibet shows you are biased, you should call it Xizang…etc etc etc” and I was like , “er, you called it Tibet”, but that was no longer relevant, I had a screaming nutter on my hands…
So even foreigners aren’t allowed a different point of view. One World, one Dream, one China… go figure.
May 2nd, 2008 at 9:31 am
“simply liken it as a parade of goons and thugs who were heading to an overseas invasion like what happened in 19th century?”
Oh brother, looks like the recent events have not only brought out the worst instincts in some Chinese, but they have also brought out the worst instincts in some of us as well. Hmmm, it was okay in the 19th century for Europeans to immigrate to other parts of the world, but when the Chinese tried to do the same they were labeled the yellow peril. And here we are in year 2008 and the commenter above still views the Chinese through such racist lens.
It’s time both sides step back a little and try to understand each other’s perspectives. The Chinese you saw in Aukland may not be representative of the majority of Chinese worldwide. Let’s stay cool headed and not cave into our worst instincts.
May 2nd, 2008 at 10:06 am
I want to point out that whatever the origin of the Snow Lion flag and whatever the historical meaning of it, this flag is used by the Tibetan-Government-in-Exile, which states itself as the sovereign representive of an independent country. This flag was disused during by the Tibetan government during 1950-1959 and resumed again only when the Dalai Lama declared the full independence on the Tibeto-Nepali border.
May 2nd, 2008 at 11:29 am
“I saw no Hong Kongese or Taiwanese flags …… This appeared to be more a People’s Republic of China event than a wider Chinese community event.”
Being a Hong Kongese, I’m so relieved to find that a foreigner can distinguish those people from mainland China from other people of Chinese ethnicity. The Chinese government (through their proxies in Hong Kong), though, has been trying to ‘educate’ the populace in Hong Kong to be more ‘patriotic’. I just hope that the majority of Hong Kong people will not someday become G&Ts like some of us already have. (Yesterday a female university student who exhibited the Snow Lion Flag during the torch relay in HK was surrounded by some local and some mainland G&Ts; the student was then escorted by the local police to leave the crowd safely.)
A few years ago, when I was crossing the road in Wellington, I was cursed by a Maori man, for no apparent reason. If the same happens again today, I think I can at least explain that because I’m Chinese.
May 2nd, 2008 at 7:43 pm
@Perspectivehere:
“What is most shocking about all this is how out-of-character this demonstration seems for overseas Chinese and Chinese foreign students.”
What is not in the least shocking for me, is how completely in-character this seems for fenqing, the angry young Chinese who has been raised on a diet of extreme nationalism. The Nazi’s were never as successful as the CCP has been at this, and I see examples of this kind of behavious on a weekly basis. Of course, I live in Red China. Overseas Chinese, are still Chinese. In fact, in some respects, they are even more extremely nationalistic that the ones that are still in China, as they are the ones who either did best at school, in an education system that focuses on political education, or they come from wealthy families, families who support the Party and it’s hegemonist outlook.
@ The Suffocated:
Well said. I know quite a few people from Hong Kong, and not one of them wants anything at all to do with Red China. In fact, it’s usually quite easy to spot the differences between Hong Kongers and Chinese, at least for those of us who have experience with the two groups, so relax.
@All readers:
What Bunnyhugs doesn’t stress, is that he has a great deal of experience with China. He speaks (and reads) the language better than most citizens of China, and he understands their various points of view very well. For him to be critical of the behaviour of Chinese citizens, is perhaps the most damning critisism I have yet seen of these ‘Red Nazi’s’. Kudos to him and thanks for a report that, were it written by me, would not have been nearly so forgiving.
May 2nd, 2008 at 8:18 pm
A bunch of Tibentans beat strangers on the street, robbed local stores, burnt down house with 5 girls alive in it, yet Nancy Pelosi called it a “peaciful protest”, freedom of the speech….
Then a bunch Chineses went on street, waved flags shouted things, got on people’s face …. holly crap! the sky is falling! what an “ugly nationalistic” protest, what a bunch of “thugs and goons”….
you people… opened my eyes like nothing before, wow…just wow…
May 2nd, 2008 at 8:53 pm
To LOL:
Obviously the events in Lhasa were a violent riot. I am not writing about that because I was not in Lhasa to see it. There are accounts online of what happened in Lhasa and those who are interested can find that information for themselves.
I am writing about the behavior of Chinese demonstrators in Auckland because that is what I saw. I am not writing about the background to all of this (i.e. the Lhasa riots, anti-torch protests overseas, etc). I am not writing about why the students are unhappy. I am just writing about their behavior. My opinions might even help them protest more effectively in future.
Anyway, this blog is really about cocktails. Why not hunt around for a drink and relax a little?
May 2nd, 2008 at 11:28 pm
MyLaowai, you seem to be making a deliberate attempt to smear Chinese protesters with the “Nazi” appellation. Set yourself up as an expert and tell everybody how bad the Chinese are from your own experience. Spread fear and hatred. Perhaps some will believe you and you will accomplish your purpose. Or perhaps you are just fearful and anxious yourself.
Please stop. People are people.
Instead of being divisive, can you try making peace instead? it’s better for your health and heart and spirit.
“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God.”
“Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
“Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.”
May I suggest you read this. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/december/25.54.html
There are estimated between 70 million to 100 million Christians in China now. Many Communist Party officials practice Christianity.
In http://www.nationalreview.com/interrogatory/aikman200312220001.asp, author David Aikman says:
“Many Chinese Christians believe that a broad Christian constituency throughout China will be one of the few assurances that China can make a successful transition to democracy governance without violence.”
“I was struck again and again by how widespread the Christian presence is in China: taxi drivers in Beijing, businessmen in Wenzhou, academics in Shanghai.”
“I would like readers of Jesus in Beijing to grasp how Christianity, though assumed by many in the West to be outmoded and irrelevant to modern life, is regarded by many Chinese as the absolute key to a successful, peaceful, powerful modern China in the future.”
MyLaowai, would you condemn these Chinese the same way?
Please examine your conscience - are you speaking from love? Perhaps you have difficulty with forgiveness, as you admitted:
“thanks for a report that, were it written by me, would not have been nearly so forgiving.”
Learn to forgive. “Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.”
http://www.believers.org/believe/bel139.htm
My God bless you and keep you always.
May 3rd, 2008 at 2:28 am
I live in the inner city and was curious about the noise, wandered down into Queen st and came across the scuffle outside McDs, the action was partly obscured by a crowd, but the police arrived in numbers of 6 only as the woman was lashing back out in retaliation, it seemed that 1 pregnant woman and another woman with a small child were attacked by the Chinese fenqing, these would be the 4 Polynesians that you referred to, but I was a bit confused by their actual identity and they did not seem to represent any group, although I had the impression that they had a sign about Human Rights. Glad that the police did arrest 2 of the guys there, though I await to hear what action is really taken; they better be deported with their student visas canceled, but by the whole official action I wouldn’t expect so. That camera team maybe got some footage.
I did not venture deep into the event, but found it quite intimidating and totally out of order; thanks for pointing out how us kiwis are brainwashed by CNN.
It was quite a dreary, drizzling Sunday and the city seemed quite empty and quiet of other usual human activity, so this was fortunate that there were less people than usual that would have had to witness this, but it was disgraceful for all those people who did.
May 3rd, 2008 at 4:09 am
Lorne Street: I may be wrong, but from what I can gather no Chinese have been charged over last Sunday. The arrests at McDonalds were of Polynesians only so far as I know (possibly Maori - the posts on Sky Kiwi are not clear).
I heard that those charged appeared in court already, and that the case is adjourned until the Chinese couple who were assaulted (a girl and a guy) appear in court as witnesses.
The Chinese victims have apparently been harassed again by the same group of Polynesians. The Polynesians seem to be street kids who basically live on Queen St.
It is interesting though that your impression of the scene was that the Chinese were attacking the Polynesians. On Sky Kiwi it was presented as Polynesians attacking a pair of Chinese, and a European then attacking the Polynesians. I am pretty sure there was no explicit mention of Chinese violence in relation to this incident. There was a mention though that the pregnant Polynesian has falsely accused one of the Chinese of punching her in the stomach.
May 3rd, 2008 at 4:22 am
As a former Auckland resident I can only say that it sounds like the most exciting thing to happen there in a century. The Chinese mob mentality comes with the territory, it’s all pantomime. The Chinese guys who curse you will probably be trying to recruit you to Amway tomorrow.
I love the “have you been to Tibet” questions. Having spent the last 20 years to-ing and fro-ing from Tibet I can only say the Olympic protests bear no relation to what’s actually happening in Tibet. It’s not really about Tibet at all, it’s about Han identity and respect..
May 3rd, 2008 at 4:33 am
PS Having seen how your blog is about alcohol I shall recommend two decent Aussie brews: Murrays “Sassy Blonde” (the Pale Ale is good too) and the Lord Nelson Brewery Old Admiral. Try ‘em if you can find ‘em.
Down the hatch!
May 3rd, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Thanks Seamus, there was a crowd surge and I did not have an open view, the police turned up as the woman was striking back screaming “you kicked my baby”; a few minutes later a Maori man, who was not together with the ‘Polynesian group’ began telling me how he stepped in to shield the woman, he said he wasn’t with them, but felt he should do the right thing and shield the woman from being attacked, he said when he did this he received a number of punches and kicks.
Who were the camera crew, independent or were they with the organisers.
The Chinese seemed to be surging around looking for anyone who showed any disagreement with them and then to deal to them. The Government and the police should make it clear to them that any alternative view is allowed to be freely expressed.
May 3rd, 2008 at 3:12 pm
[…] tourism drops overall in China?- The new Red Guards were not only causing trouble in Seoul, but even in Auckland, New Zealand where no Olympic torch relay was even held. - So what do foreigners really know about China? […]
May 3rd, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Lorne Street: The Camera crew were from a firm called SODE Productions. I don’t know much about them. They seem to be a Chinese New Zealand media company who are involved in stuff like wedding photos and videos (big business for Chinese!) and videos for the New Zealand China Friendship Society. I think they are just a local media company with a Chinese focus.
As for whether SODE productions are affiliated with the organizers of Sunday’s rally I have no idea.
Your comments on the McDonalds incident are interesting. Even assuming the Polynesians started the altercation, the way you describe things makes it sound surprising that no Chinese were arrested.
Did you see any evidence of the European man with Chinese flags on his face who is said to have intervened to attack the Polynesians?
May 3rd, 2008 at 8:16 pm
The police turned up as the woman was basically stepping forward and throwing arms wildly, screaming “you kicked my baby”; so I guess they acted on that; they had 2 Chinese guys standing and taking details, I presumed they were arresting them, but it seems not so.
There was a crowd surge and mainly red shirts; one main voice calling for them to stop coming from a woman, shouting peace; I did not notice the police talking to a European guy who supposedly intervened, so I don’t have much credence for that.
I was intrigued to understand who these people were who were titled as being ‘polynesian’; they did not fit into any easy category; maybe they were the usual types hanging out on the street who hurled some comments towards the students who should have known to ignore these types; but I did get an impression there was about 4 of them standing there doing a non invasive protest of some sort, this may have been enough to attract the attention.
May 4th, 2008 at 12:43 am
Great blogpost, man. The appalling nationalism of the Chinese is worse than anything we saw at the height of European or American colonialism.
Michael
May 4th, 2008 at 3:03 am
Thanks very much for this full coverage, which is not available elsewhere. As a New Zealander who lived in China for over three years I’m afraid to say this disaster is hardly surprises me.
As always I am flabagasted that the Chinese make such full use of their right to protest/demonstrate - you can’t do that back in China mate.
I imagine numbers took the Police completely by surprise - but it is very scary that downtown Auckalnd can be taken over by one nationality, who will actually violently attack locals expressing an opinion!!
These people cannot be reasoned with, the hate and brainwashing is too deep-seated. Considering you were assaulted, I think going back to try and make up with them was crazy. Don’t be too hard on yourself for not accepting the flag and rest assured the woman who offered it to you is not analysing her own actions. To her you were just another foreign devil. I took Chinese at Uni and speak Mandarin well, I must say walking down Queen Street and hearing Laowai this and Laowai that, does not make me too happy. But anyway, no need to get worked up. I’m a Wellington man anyway.
Looking forward to more from your blog
May 4th, 2008 at 3:39 am
…but, I do wonder how the large HK Chinese (and other Chinese) communities feel about this? Probably disgusted.
I was amazed at the item on TV 3 News about a month ago. In members of the Chinese communtiy in NZ - said Tibet has been part of China for 1000 years and the western media were all liars. I know they’ve been saying it everywhere but it hit home them making these crazy statements right here in NZ.
I ‘quit’ living in Shanghai in Jan - but I feel for the buddies I left behind - especially those who need new visas;)
You say you breathed a sigh of relief when you found out the Olympic Torch was not coming here, me too. I heard there was a March here in Wellington, on ANZAC day no less! I missed it - I feel I should try and go along if there is another march - but I also wonder what’s the point. I’ve banged my head enough dealing with these kinds of attitudes in China - why start here. Although engagement is the best policy…
May 4th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
At least, the so-called ‘appalling nationalism’ does serve a noble objective of defensing national sovereign and pride of China and Asia as a whole.
What is the outcome of European or American colonialism; exploitation, slavery, divide-and-rule practises, white supremacy master…. and last but not least, causing millions of untold sufferings and deaths.
Either Michael is dumb or blind for not being able to see the differences.
May 4th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
[…] follow the links in this comment by Sonagi. Think: Boxer Rebellion with nukes. Don’t miss this, […]
May 4th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Special Brew Man was kind enough to leave a link to this compelling description of Chinese “patriotism” at its worst with a comment my (much more low key) post about a French boycott movement in Beijing. Anyway, glad and saddened to read it. Thanks to SBM for th tip and thanks to you for writing it. Looking forward to reading more of your blog.
May 5th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
The appalling nationalism of the Chinese is worse than anything we saw at the height of European or American colonialism.
World War 2 and the Holocaust ring a bell, or did you wash your hands of that with the blood of Arab children? Let me guess, it has nothing to do with you because you aren’t German. But it’s fine to tar 1,400,000,000 Chinese people for the actions of perhaps 100 people who stepped out of line.
May 5th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
“Many Chinese Christians believe that a broad Christian constituency throughout China will be one of the few assurances that China can make a successful transition to democracy governance without violence.”
i.e convert everyone to *our* religion and *our* religion only because I feel only people of my faith can have a soul or a conscience.
the CCP is too soft on these arrogant, deceiving Christians.
May 5th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
and how funny for Michael Turton to talk about minor scuffles as “worse than American colonialism”. What a fucking pig.
Especially because this is about NEW ZEALAND, where much of the native population was butchered by evil Europeans.
Yes, you enslaved blacks, wiped out many of the aboriginals of South America, the United States, Canada, Australia, and Siberia, tossed Jews, homosexuals, and leftists into furnaces, poisoned China with drugs, and bombed Arabs to steal oil. That doesn’t give you a right to wipe your bloody hands off on the nearest person you run by.
May 6th, 2008 at 6:26 am
ferin, you wrote,
“i.e convert everyone to *our* religion and *our* religion only because I feel only people of my faith can have a soul or a conscience.”
I don’t know if that is what David Aikman meant when he said what he said in the interview I cited.
I do think that many people outside China view the 1.4 billion Chinese in a dehumanizing way. MyLaowai, who says he lives in China, sounds pretty ready to make sweeping negative statements about them.
The point of quoting Aikman is to say, wait a minute, those of you who say China is whatever may not realise that these people who seem so foreign to some of you actually share the same religion some of you do.
I could have just as easily mentioned that China has about 200 million Buddhists, but that does not surprise people as much.
People often make dehumanizing assumptions about people they don’t know. At the end of the day, people are people, but they seem to forget that due to ignorance, fear, suspicion, blindness.
I appreciate Seamus’ post because he seems to try to see people as individuals, despite being attacked by some of them. He’s not going to hate all Chinese because a few of them messed with him. He tries not to be blinded by fear and anger, and really tries to understand what’s going on.
But I do agree with you that sometimes there are people who can only identify with people of their own religious orientation.
For example there were Christians in the U.S. military who finally woke up to the horror of what they did when they found out after bombing Nagasaki that it was Japan’s historic Christian city and the bombers had used the city’s massive St Mary’s Cathedral as the target for their bombsight.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/kohls3.html At least they woke up.
Anthony De Mello is an example of a spiritual guide who drew much from religious traditions outside his own. Check him out when you have time:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2065/is_2_51/ai_56063940/print
May 6th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
@perspectivehere
I wouldn’t bother trying to engage ferin, he is a prolific China Troll who lives in America
“I call all Chinese ‘wives’ of anti-Chinese spammers whores. Just like their whore husbands, who lick CCP dick for a buck and then whine about it on the internet.” - ferin
“Ferin sometimes claims to be American, sometimes Canadian and at other times he calls the Republic of China his home country. One thing is for sure, he doesn’t know the least bit about life in China and tries to make up for his ignorance by calling other commenters all kinds of names and even insulting their spouses. He’s most likely some spoiled high school kid suffering Yellow Fever.” -Peking Duck
May 6th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
good!
我可以用中文發表看法嗎?
May 6th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
wongt, 歡迎你寫中文。 不過我怕會看懂的人不多。
May 6th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Kinda funny how a Christian nation dropped a nuclear bomb on a Christian city..
May 7th, 2008 at 12:05 am
Nothing serious. Do your bar work.
May 7th, 2008 at 12:25 am
Thanks for the comment sss_nz.
I will take your advice and mix myself a delicious cocktail.
I also just noticed this thread:
http://www.chinese.net.nz/bbs/thread-123480-1-1.html
Why don’t you get an early night so you’ll be full of energy for the Chinese consulate in the morning? You did say you would be asking them to deny me Chinese visas in future. . .
May 7th, 2008 at 12:32 am
MISUNDERSTANDING? OR PREJUDICE?
THE AIM OF THE RALLY IS “SURPORTING BEIJING OLYMPIC GAMES” INSTEAD OF PROTESTING THE BLAMING CHINA BY FALSE STORY FROM SOME WESTERN MEDIA.
PLEASE DO NOT ENLARGE THE LITTLE ACCIDENT. DIDNT U SEE THE CHINES AND NEW ZEALAND FLAG? DIDINT HEAR SLOGAN ” I LOVE CHINA AND NEW ZEALAND”, “PROMOTE NATIONALITIES HORAMONY IN NEW ZEALAND”?
DIDINT HEAR THE NEW ZEALAND AND CHINESE NATIONAL ANTHEMS?
May 7th, 2008 at 1:24 am
Thanks for the comment Alistair. I already described exactly what I saw and experienced.
Thanks for singing the New Zealand national anthem while waving your Chinese flags. Unfortunately I missed that part on account of being assaulted and asked to leave within minutes of arriving.
May 7th, 2008 at 5:11 am
It’s always good to see a Kiwi who tried so hard to express his personal interest on chinese community in NZ. Not many Kiwis will even bother to know what ‘Alien’ chinese are doing in their own country.
Understanding the language means understanding the culture first.
When you ‘de-code’ one cultural event without thoroughly understanding of its cultural background, it always brings confusion and misunderstanding.
It doesn’t only happen to Chinese, but also to Maori or Polynesian who are also flaged as ‘Barbarian’, ‘Uncivilised’ by some Euro-NZers who are talking ABOVE others.
I am pretty sure that majority of chinese community would not agree with your opinions expressed in your article.
It doesn’t surprise me what happened to you when you was wearing a t-shirt with ‘ROC’ flag on its back and standing among a large main-land chinese group in a WRONG time. What were you THINKING about??
Mate! It likes you are waving a ‘Union Jack’ flag when confronting with a group of Maori activists in Waitangi Day. The only thing I can say is that you will get a TROUBLE if you are LOOKING for a trouble.
Read some chinese books FRIST, talk to chinese and understand their culture. Don’t be like some kiwis who even live in China, but never make any effort to understand the local culture.
It good to be humble instead of pointing a finger if you don’t really understand a thing. This is also one thing that Confucius taught Chinese people.
P.S. I strongly disagree with any violence intent to cause bodily harm. Those people who offered violence should be arrested and removed from the public place.
May 7th, 2008 at 5:27 am
By the way, have you had the permission of the young chinese fellow to publish his personal photo in your blog?
It is rude and also illegal to publish someone’s photo without his or her permission in NEW ZEALAND even if you accused him of assaulting you.
The RIGHT thing to do is to make a formal complaint against the fellow and to send the photo to the Police.
Do you agree with me?
May 7th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Alfie:
On the ROC flag t-shirt issue, my jacket was buttoned up so the flag was invisible at the time I was assaulted. You can see this in the photo above, taken immediately after the assault. There was no connection between the t-shirt I was wearing and the assault. Therefore accusations that I was ‘looking for trouble’ and found it are not meaningful.
With regards to your suggestion that I just need to ‘understand Chinese culture’ some more. I spent most of the last decade doing just that. You even suggest that since I “don’t understand a thing” I should be humble and refrain from comment. Sorry, I was assaulted for no good reason at a hostile political rally. I have every right to comment on my experience. If my experiences make Chinese uncomfortable that is unfortunate. However, the solution is for Chinese demonstrators to stop behaving in a hostile and unlawful manner, not for the victims of their actions to refrain from talking about it.
On the photo issue. I am also in the picture and the picture directly relates to my experiences. In fact the photo is clearly intended to be a record of how the protesters attacked me and drove me away. My assailant was happy to see this picture displayed over at Sky Kiwi. He even proudly identified himself. I don’t see the problem.
May 7th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
can you write some articals that describe how white people killed so many marios in history?
We would like to kown that as well. Dont just write something to against china.
May 7th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
PowerOfChina: My article is not ‘against China’. My article is about the nature of a Chinese political demonstration in Auckland.
Why don’t you write a comment that relates to my article instead of raising the unrelated issue of Maori-European relations?
There are plenty of books and articles covering the history of Maori-European relations. If you are genuinely interested in the subject I suggest you go and read those.
Maori-European relations has attracted far more scholarly attention than, for example, Chinese-Aboriginal relations in Taiwan. Chinese in Taiwan have yet to seriously ask themselves whether and how they screwed over Taiwan’s Austronesian indigenous peoples. Only a couple of years ago Vice-President Annette Lu was suggesting aboriginals be shipped to South America!
Furthermore, the English literature on Maori-European relations is far more objective than the Chinese literature on Chinese-Tibetan relations. Chinese writers who attempt objective treatments of Chinese-Tibetan relations frequently find themselves the subject of state harassment. One example would be Wang Lixiong, author of thoughtful, and emphatically NOT “anti-Chinese” articles such as this one: http://www.newleftreview.org/?view=2380. Wang Lixiong’s writing is the type of stuff that should be making both sides of the Tibet issue do a little soul searching. He has an objective perspective that is also Chinese. Unfortunately objectivity is not welcome and the Chinese government attempts to shut him down.
May 8th, 2008 at 2:18 am
No one bother talking about Maori - European issue, Maori has been minoritized and even Maori people do not bother speaking their native languages. Talking about inter-race of inter-nation issues, jungle rules apply worldwidely. History is written by winner (more often than not are stronger, luckier, and shamelesser) in winner’s language, and dead people don’t protest. So called ‘human’ civilization is more founded on the expoitation of the seemingly unlimited resources and Modern People are addicted to it. There is no way back to stone-age. Talking about ‘human rights’ and ‘freedom’, there is nothing more attempting than that. First issue is who is qualified for human, of cause the stronger, I often hear dark people, barbarian, black people, criminals, man-eater addressed on loser unopenly. The page of history is always heavy to open. (to be continued).
Thanks for the webmaster giving me a place to share some humble idea of mine.
May 8th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
Seamus: I was there that day. Those Pro-Chinses demonstrators were friendly to me. I’ve been told they want the unbiased report to China and Beijing Olympic game from the media.
Anyway, I agree with what Alfie said: “Mate! It likes you are waving a ‘Union Jack’ flag when confronting with a group of Maori activists in Waitangi Day. The only thing I can say is that you will get a TROUBLE if you are LOOKING for a trouble.”
Esspecially the last sentence: ” You will get a TROUBLE if you are LOOKING for a trouble.”
May 8th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Steve: Thanks for the comments. I’m pleased to hear everybody was very friendly to you. My experiences were obviously different, as were the experiences of various other people up and down Queen Street.
Yet again, I need to emphasize a couple of points. I have already made these points very clear but not everybody reads thoroughly.
First, the t-shirt was not visible prior to my being attacked. The t-shirt only became visible when I unbuttoned my jacket to reassure the hostile crowd that I was not a pro-Tibet activist hiding a Snow Lion design. This occurred long after the assault was over. Nobody expressed any issue whatsoever with the T-shirt. The trouble occurred because they assumed (incorrectly) that I was a pro-Tibetan activist. My t-shirt is simply irrelevant.
Second, I was not “LOOKING for trouble”. In fact the situation was EXACTLY the opposite. The people who attacked me were “LOOKING for trouble”. In fact they were so eager for trouble that they did not even attempt to confirm I was a Tibetan activist before attacking me.
I am offended by the insinuations that I am somehow to blame when a bunch of people at an Olympics Celebration (it even wasn’t billed as a nationalist political rally) decide to attack me without provocation and based on incorrect assumptions.
Can we stop chasing the non-issue of a t-shirt that nobody could even see?
May 8th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Seamus: Thanks for your reply.
Ok, I give up. At least, I don’t have to listen to what other guys say, and I believe what I was seeing.
Good luck to you, mate.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:57 am
Sounds like at least some of the Chinese demonstrators are like the English kids who go around disgracing my country of birth whenever we play soccer overseas.
How do “overseas Chinese” feel about the mainland government? I know East Europeans and Cuban expats were/are mostly hostile to the communist regimes in those countries, but wondered if a Taiwanese or Hong Konger would feel the same way. Has China’s espousal of capitalism changed things? And what’s a G&T, other than a drink? (generalisation here, I know).
May 9th, 2008 at 2:13 am
I agree with Steve. You will get a TROUBLE if you are LOOKING for a trouble. Although you commented you were not looking for trouble, I guess at least you did not make effort to communicate to the people who “attacked” you. You are good at Chinese and you have done a good job for the translation of some stuff at Sky Kiwi. Yes, why didn’t Steve meet any trouble or unfriendly Chinese on that day? Why just you?
Thank you anyway, because I am not “looking for trouble too”.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:01 am
Blue, thanks for joining the chorus of people blaming me for getting assaulted.
In fact, you even seem to doubt that I was assaulted (i.e. you put quotation marks around the word ‘attacked’). Go and check on Sky Kiwi if you don’t believe me. Last time I looked there where photos up there captioned something like “The guy we kicked because we mistook him for a Tibetan protester”. So Chinese witnesses also say that I was assaulted and that it was unprovoked. You don’t believe me or them. It seems you just don’t want to believe it happened. Why?
In any case, it was not just me that experienced trouble. As described above there were numerous violent events.
I don’t doubt that Steve found the event friendly and experienced no trouble. Steve must not have been in the same places at the same time that I was. Steve may also be Chinese himself, or at least Asian.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:16 am
Hi Seamus,
Thank you for your prompt rely.
I feel really sorry that you experienced a tough time. I wouldn’t doubt that sometimes there exists the misunderstanding.
I could also smell the lack of trust when you say Steve may also be Chinese himself. Usually people will make comparision(i.e. what Steve experienced and what you experienced) on the same basis. I believe if Steve looks like Asian, he would not compare his experience with yours. Anyway, I do not know who he is, but I hold the view that trust among people, especially those from different nations, will make the whole world become more beautiful and more peaceful. I believe that’s what God wants.
I am afraid some of your words in your blog may bring more misunderstanding among people. That’s not what I hope for. We should admit there are both good people and bad people in any country and from any nation. The title of “ugly nationalistic Chinese …” just seems to be sending the message that you are against all the Chinese. Please correct me if I am wrong.
As I said, I am not looking for trouble. I also have both Western and Chinese firends in Auckland, or in many other countries. Some of them are husbands and wives, and they have lovely children. I believe they wouldn’t want to face the situation someday that their children have to choose whether they are Chinese or not.
So, why don’t we start to give others a sweet smile, rather than waste time facing to the computer. I believe nobody will hit a smiling face.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
have u been assaulted? physically or psychologistilly? stop making up stories, you are like a 60yrs woman - a gossipmonger.
all right, nature of Nationalistic Chinese Demonstration in Auckland - ugly?? what about kiwi nature in auckland? lying, stealing, cheating?!?! i would like to use “disgusting” to discribe kiwi culture.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Hi Blue,
I do not question the truthfulness of Steve’s experiences. However, I do question whether he is misrepresenting himself. He gave the impression that his experiences were directly comparable to mine (i.e. that he is another non-Chinese attending the rally). I just suggest they may not be directly comparable. My reasons for being suspicious? First, he appears not to be a native English speaker. Second, he found this site only after local Chinese language sites linked here. Third, he was very keen to suggest that I must have instigated the thing (and in making that suggestion indicated some familiarity with the whole cross-Strait political issue). Therefore, I wonder whether he is not Chinese himself.
Of course questioning Steve does not mean I am saying there were no non-Chinese at the rally who did not experience problems. Photographs online and accounts by Chinese attendees at the rally indicate that non-Chinese attendees were there. Obviously everyone had their own individual experiences of the event. I happened to arrive at a violent moment and get caught up in the violence. People standing around the main stage would not have seen what I saw.
The title “Ugly Nationalistic Chinese Demonstration” means what it means. Let me break it down for you. The demonstration was certainly “Ugly” (maybe not the whole thing, but certainly some parts - e.g. the violence). It was “Chinese”. It was “Nationalistic”. The title is simply describing what I saw.
The title should not give you the impression that I am anti-Chinese. The title simply refers to one event, an event that only a minority of Chinese in Auckland attended, and where only a minority of attendees (although quite a large one) behaved badly.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
I’ve really been enlightened by the discussion here and even the occasional flamer because they all have made me think.
Earlier I posted that the behavior exhibited at this event seems uncharacteristic from my experience of overseas Chinese and Chinese students, and that there must be some explanation for why they are expressing themselves this time this way. Then I came across this interview with Hung Huang (a media personality nicknamed “China’s Oprah”) that has given me some insight on some of the emotions that Chinese are feeling:
http://www.danwei.org/featured_video/hong_huang_on_torch_fiasco.php
Of course, the hurt that Hung Huang says Chinese are genuinely feeling (i.e., not made up, as some people suggest) still does not excuse acts of violence by some at the event in Auckland and that Seamus has experienced. But it does help us to put it into perspective.
Seamus’ quote from Lord of the Flies made me reflect that everyone (even a bunch of innocent schoolboys on an island) is prone to joining in tribal irrational violent behavior when they mass in a crowd and there is a loss of authority in control (the 1963 movie has a memorable scene where the boys are rescued and the uniform of the naval officer seems to be symbolic of the restoration of order. Not sure whether that image was part of the original novel).
I took part in a riot once after my university won a football (American) league championship. It started innocently with the fans rushing on the field, ripping out the goal post and throwing it into the river. Good fun. Then the crowd moved on to campus and trashed the library, destroying furniture and smashing walls. There were no guards. It was insane and I wasn’t part of the destruction although I laughed along with everyone else. Afterwards my roommate talked about how disgusted he was at the behavior, and I knew he was right, and felt a bit of shame at just going along with it all. I learned something about avoiding the madness of crowds.
Now here’s a question for Seamus which is appropriate considering that this is a blog devoted to drinking. What beverage would be appropriate for Chinese parade-goers?
The Irish have Guinness for their annual March 17 celebration of culture, faith and pride. 18th and 19th century Irish Catholic immigrants in America, a downtrodden but rising minority group, started the St Patrick’s Day parade in the face of what they perceived to be a discriminatory Protestant environment. The parade became an annual institution and now has spread around the world and back to Ireland itself.
But in the U.S. the celebration is also widely criticised as a day of ugly nationalism and rowdy violence. Google “St Paddy’s Day Brawl” and you find 158,000 entries (although not all are about parade violence but for a boxing event called “Erin go Brawl”). People love it and hate it. Every year there are opinion pieces from the haters like this:
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ian_williams/2007/03/how_green_is_my_guiness.html
and this:
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2004/03/st_patricks_day.html
Some of the comments to those articles sound a lot like the comments to this one.
But the annual celebration endures, and somehow our multiethnic society survives.
Is there a Kiwi version of St Paddy’s Day?
If so, do you think Chinese in NZ will develop their version of the St Patrick’s Day parade, replete with flags, silly T-shirts, buttons saying “I heart China” and “Kiss me I’m Chinese” and - ready for it now - red beer?
May 9th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
There is a St Patrick’s day parade which is colourful and children orientated; a few Asian groups always join the parade to dance and beat drums; this year Queen st was closed off for a period with a free concert. Any big drinking events are inside licensed premises and will follow responsible host guidelines.
There is a large lantern festival held in the inner city every year; CNY also has events; so I would say that this is already covered, along with other suburban events that are also programmed.
perspectivehere, your example of a riot was in your home town is not relevant; I have also been outside Beijing stadium after a soccer match between something like Beijing and Shandong and there was some very heavy action with big rocks thrown through bus windows and more; but that is quite another thing from being in another country and instituting violence against people who have a clear democratic right to express their opinion, and innocent bystanders like Seamus; going beyond the laws of the country.
It is okay if about a thousand foreigners gather in Tienanmen during the Olympics; not to protest anything about China, but to protest about the great commercial crock of shit that the Olympics has become, protest about the Olympics banning overly commercialized and highly professional sports like soccer, basketball, tennis and many more; protest about banning athletes who have been in concentration training prisons since small kids; and a few other things.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
perspectivehere believes the violent and ugly behavior exhibited to be uncharacteristic?
By the mentality of Kevin, ferin and other posters here, and especially by what goes on Skykiwi, it does not seem to be uncharacteristic.
May 10th, 2008 at 12:53 am
“A few years ago, when I was crossing the road in Wellington, I was cursed by a Maori man, for no apparent reason. If the same happens again today, I think I can at least explain that because I’m Chinese.”
I found it interesting that most Hk nese put so much emphasis on separating themselves from mainland Chinese as those Chinese are somehow inferior and less educated than the Hong Kongnease. The comment above explictly expressed such view.
The Maori man who screamed at you was being racist but instead of thinking it was his problem, you personalise it and attribute it to being Chinese. It’s pretty much a joke by itself.
I wonder why all those HK movie stars including Jackie Chan proudly announce their affiliation with China so strongly because they see if there are problems, all Chinese (Mainland or HK) should work together rather than finger pointing each other and destroy other ppl’s esteem. Racism happens most often within the Chinese community. No wonder Chinese from mainland were so angry towards the outsiders. But such behaviours are definitely out of order and need to be deterred.
May 10th, 2008 at 2:20 am
Nice one Blue, accuse Seamus of playing with words, using isolated words to confront people and attract attention; but this doesn’t stop you from straight away taking an isolated quote and twisting it to attack Seamus; hypocrisy doesn’t come to mind?
It was blatantly obvious that Steve is not a native English speaker; no need to make accusations against him of being this or that, but it is clear that you can not take him seriously.
May 10th, 2008 at 4:58 am
Several people just left inflammatory and false comments.
Specifically, people accused me of being a pro-Tibetan activist. I am not. People also accused me of attending a pro-Tibetan demonstration held outside the Chinese consulate. I did not attend that demonstration. I have never attended any pro-Tibetan demonstration.
I have had no option but to delete a bunch of comments. Sorry.
I have tried to be extremely fair to both sides. I have published all comments up until this point regardless of which side they support. However, if one side insists on lying and spreading false rumors about me, my only option is to censor that side. There is no reason I should let people use aliases to slander me on my own website.
Of course at the end of the day it reflects more badly on the accusers than it does on me.
May 10th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
I deleted several comments last night and removed a couple more than probably should have been removed. For example, Blue accused me of false translation and other stuff. It is hard to tell what she really means because it does not make much sense. Anyway, her original comment is below. I should put it back so people can see what Elliot Street is responding to above.
—————-
“Hi Seamus
As an interpreter who knows both English and Chinese, I should say you are good at playing with words. But the fundamental principle of translation should be assisting the communication, rather than using isolated words to confront people and to attract attention. If you do that, you would have trouble in communicating even with someone who speak the same language, or come from the same nation.
In your reply to my other comment on the incident in front of McDonald, you said you were banned from Sky Kiwi for expressing different opinions.
“Anyone who has been following the recent Tibet riots will be familiar with the story. Peaceful protests in Tibet somehow become violent riots.”
The above is what I quoted from the link you gave. Have you been in Tibet at that time? Did you get the idea of “peaceful protests in Tibet” from the media or by your own eyes? Whatever the protest is, ordinary people should not die. Is this the reason that you are banned from Sky Kiwi?
Personally I strongly object violence. I could also understand that sometimes some people may take extreme actions when they are confronted. Especially when people feel that the truth is distorted, they might take it personally. I think we could still remember the story of a New Zealand MP punched the other MP in the parliament when he was confronted. I do not want to say he will represent all the local people in New Zealand. So why don’t we have more tolerance and patience with those people who may not behave in the same way as what you expect?
I would like to say that New Zealand is improving, China is improving and the whole world is improving. We should focus on the good aspects and look at the bright side.”
May 10th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
Blue,
Can you find tell me exactly how I am “playing with words” in my translation? Give me an example.
Can you also tell me what part of my statement “peaceful protests in “Tibet somehow become violent riots” is false? The statement means this: initially there were peaceful protests, subsequently there were violent riots; there appears to have been some connection but the details are obscure”. What part of that do you have a problem with? The statement does not mean “Peaceful protests in Tibet have incorrectly been labeled violent riots”. If you think it does mean something like this then you are a poor interpreter who gets confused by simple English.
You say you disapprove of violence but can understand people behaving violently when “confronted”. Are you suggesting I “confronted” the people who attacked me? I didn’t. I had my back to them.
May 10th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Seamus, it is Elliot Street, not Lorne Street. I hope the two streets are not the only one street.
I am done here, because I am busy with other things. Your reply is just a good example of you being excellent with handing language.
Thank you anyway, as I won’t take it personally. bye.
May 10th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
OK Blue, fine. Make accusations, don’t back them with fact (in fact don’t even provide an example of what you are accusing me of), then leave.
May 10th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
I am from mainland of China. Whatever you experienced in the rally, please everyone keep in mind they CANNOT represent the majority of RPC people. There are over a thousand of people, I believe most of them intend to act peacefully but extremilist are always there.
I don’t care about BeiJing Olympic, since by using my family’s money, we won’t benefit from it, we general public can’t even have a say on that.
At least half of my (RPC)Chinese fellows have same opinion. Completing degrees and finding jobs are exhausing enough. Call us “materialism” is fine. We have learnt not to accept everything the government told us like in the old days and our number is increasing. Anyway the rally itself can exacerbate participants’ emotion.
I always stay out of all these “patronic” stuff. But what happened in the rally may influence local’s view on us. Feel free to pay a visit on HanHan’s blog,he is one of my favorite writer,his thinking are rather criticial, it presents the view you may not be aware of which oppossed by a large group of Chinese people -
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4701280b010094qa.html
May 11th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY3_tibj7Uo
May 11th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Evan: Thanks for the comments. You seem to be one of the saner voices out there.
Sabah Mail: That youtube video on the Seoul demonstrations is itself rather controversial. To find out what happened in Seoul would probably require sifting through lots of accounts in Korean and Chinese. Regardless, it seems clear